Curse

upier · Feb 26, 2010, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I don't think the old Visions of Regret was overpowered at all. It did decent damage and didn't conflict with mesmers skills. Other professions are going in the exact opposite way in where they're improving synergy with their own skills and with other professions.

One mesmer may enough the mesmer like skills, but the other mesmer players will want a bit of both or damage. How is it other professions can do many things while you want an extreme focus for one? That isn't fair to the players who enjoy the various aspects of a profession. There's more to a mesmer than PvP.

I'm all for slowing the game, buffing, or reworking. It's pretty crazy that mesmer, paragon, and dervish players will all have sit around while the gap between usefulness and power grows wider.

I was thinking how it would be interesting if the mesmer was for casters what the necro is for physicals.
For instance - have a MoP like hex that deals AoE damage, when the foe is the target of a spell. Or a Barbs-like hex that causes the foe to take additonal damage when the hexed foe is the target of spells. And if the numbers would be nicely balanced, this could mean that the mesmer would be a better addition to the party than another direct damage dealing caster YET at the same time it would prevent CoP-like spikes.
And then, at the same time, also introduce some skills that act as Jos's proposed Arcane Languor change (just don't go NEAR AL because that's my absolutely favourite elite in the whole game, despite how obscenely useless it is!

) and focus more on shutdown.

That way the guy doesn't change into a chaos nuker, yet still becomes a nice addition to the party.
Oh, and WW's delay of damage should be 1 sec instead of 3.

PvE of course.

Gill Halendt · Feb 26, 2010, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I was thinking how it would be interesting if the mesmer was for casters what the necro is for physicals.
For instance - have a MoP like hex that deals AoE damage, when the foe is the target of a spell. Or a Barbs-like hex that causes the foe to take additonal damage when the hexed foe is the target of spells. And if the numbers would be nicely balanced, this could mean that the mesmer would be a better addition to the party than another direct damage dealing caster YET at the same time it would prevent CoP-like spikes.

Now, can we please bridge the first page of this thread with this post, so we can actually have something reasonable about this topic to talk about?

That is a nice idea. Would also fit the existing distinction, the Mesmers dealing with Energy (Energy draining) while Necromancers deal with... err... Health (Life stealing).

MagmaRed · Feb 26, 2010, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I was thinking how it would be interesting if the mesmer was for casters what the necro is for physicals.
For instance - have a MoP like hex that deals AoE damage, when the foe is the target of a spell. Or a Barbs-like hex that causes the foe to take additonal damage when the hexed foe is the target of spells. And if the numbers would be nicely balanced, this could mean that the mesmer would be a better addition to the party than another direct damage dealing caster YET at the same time it would prevent CoP-like spikes.
And then, at the same time, also introduce some skills that act as Jos's proposed Arcane Languor change (just don't go NEAR AL because that's my absolutely favourite elite in the whole game, despite how obscenely useless it is!

) and focus more on shutdown.

That way the guy doesn't change into a chaos nuker, yet still becomes a nice addition to the party.
Oh, and WW's delay of damage should be 1 sec instead of 3.

PvE of course.

I like this idea better than any other I have heard. There are quite a few skills that could fit into that kind of a role based solely on their name (Overload for example). Problem is that something that widespread (you won't want 2-3 skills doing this, you will need 10-15 probably) will require a PvP change as well. When you think of all the 'physical support' spells the Necro has (Barbs, MoP, Orders, etc) it would be half-assed to give 2-3 spells to Mesmer for a 'caster support' setup.

I doubt Anet would be willing to do something that drastic at this point, but it is at least a novel idea with some potential for the game.

trankle · Feb 26, 2010, 10:20 PM // 22:20

I like upier's idea as well.

The trick is still tying it to FC, so the skills don't just get thrown on a Necro's bar. Because if you are changing that many skills, they're not all going to be in the FC line.

gremlin · Feb 27, 2010, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

I like upier's idea as well.

The trick is still tying it to FC, so the skills don't just get thrown on a Necro's bar. Because if you are changing that many skills, they're not all going to be in the FC line.

Pretty good idea Upier has proposed ditto your thoughts on tying it to FC so primary mesmers can use it most effectively.

A little buffing to the monsters in the game would have been good too.

The best way to get players to run a mesmer is to create targets that are all but impossible to take down except by mesmer skills.

They should have taken the rock paper scissors game idea and applied it right across the board then all classes would have a role in pve.

Make an undead with fast health regeneration to all but holy damage and you encourage Smiting Monks and Dervishes.
That idea could have been taken to apply to all damage types and weapons.

There are resistances to various damage types in the game but they are still easily taken down by simply hitting them.
Put something in the game that you can hit with swords axes hammers and Daggers from dawn till dusk and all you get is a blunt weapon and a tired arm and you will get players thinking of alternatives.

YunSooJin · Feb 27, 2010, 04:58 AM // 04:58

mesmers are fine. mesmer-proponents have this thinly veiled agenda in terms of wanting to be like other caster classes (ie cast and forget) instead of what they are supposed to be.. which is disruptive in crucial moments. of course, this doesnt translate well over to pve, since pve consists of /faceroll... but that's just too bad, isnt it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

The best way to get players to run a mesmer is to create targets that are all but impossible to take down except by mesmer skills.

just had to quote this as an example of the frothing-in-the-mouth insanity people have about their pet classes. There is not one monster in the game where you must have X class's skills in order to defeat it... and somehow we should have this for mesmers?

Cuilan · Feb 27, 2010, 05:05 AM // 05:05

If you were to read posts by various people who've posted about mesmers, you'd better understand the situation. How are mesmers anywhere near to the diversity, usefulness, or power of other professions?

People are bringing up ideas (good and bad) because they're needing change.

This thread is about PvE. One should have the option between damage, disruption till the foes have been defeated, shutdown (conditions), or inbetween. I've said this before indirectly, but professions aren't locked into one particular niche thing.

YunSooJin · Feb 27, 2010, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

If you were to read posts by various people who've posted about mesmers, you'd better understand the situation. Maybe instead of ignoring what was said, how are mesmers anywhere near to the diversity, usefulness, or power to other professions?

What people don't understand is that the difficulties inherent to the mesmer class are from forces beyond the control of the developers.

GW was first made as a PvP game. The first classes were balanced with respect to this. What made mesmers so fearsome in PvP (disrupting the other team/disabling members at key moments) also makes them relatively worthless in PvE.

PvE play, at least at this day in age, values vicious /faceroll ability. Sit back, spam your crap, win, move on. There is no room or place for mesmers that best exemplifies their strengths. Instead, you have mesmers trying to be like other classes (eles, necros) if not by the skills they use, but by the type of skills they use.

If you give mesmers lots of cheap hexes that do damage, you've turned them into a necromancer (curses). If you give them a lot of AoE/single target damage without all of conditionality involved, you've turned them into elementalists. At what point does the mesmer, necro, and ele end and begin? Should they be differentiated simply with regards to the special abilities their primary class gives them?

Some of the ideas in this thread sound interesting, but 1) I dont see how you'd make pvp versions that didnt just break the game, unless you were going to Smiter's Boon it, and 2) Does it really freakin matter anyways? Just roll your boring, average AP/YMLAD with 3 necromancers and join the rest of us in our idiotic /faceroll dance. :| Oh. At least you get to cast AP faster... haha...

edit: they are not bringing up ideas because mesmers need change. they saw other people get a cookie and now they want a piece of the cookie too. and they've been raised in an environment where the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Cuilan · Feb 27, 2010, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Mesmers have always had hexes. Since necromancers and mesmers have come from the same expansion, the wannabe thing is flawed. Said it twice before, but there is more to a mesmer and they can have their own PvE advantages if given the ability. By mentioning AP, you've indirectly admitted there is more to a mesmer than "crucial moments."

The Drunkard · Feb 27, 2010, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

to be reduced from somewhere. Mesmer has a lot of options to reduce damage (interrupts, casting delay, movement reduction, etc.). And that is just one of the things I'll mention. If you really need to know more of what the Mesmer can do, you need to learn how to play the class.

While those options are viable in general nm play, in HM or elite areas most of the options become obsolete or difficult to maintain without resorting to bots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Gill Halendt
Profession: W/

My main on guru is a rit, even though I changed it to a mesmer over a year and a half ago. Profiling isn't a valid argument.

YunSooJin · Feb 27, 2010, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Mesmers have always had hexes. Since necromancers and mesmers have come from the same expansion, the wannabe thing is flawed. Said it twice before, but there is more to a mesmer and they can have their own PvE advantages if given the ability. By mentioning AP, you've indirectly admitted there is more to a mesmer than "crucial moments."

uhm I mentioned AP because its something any class can do. Mesmer hexes as a rule have always been far more conditional, and their effects are better seen in protracted battles, rather than the 15 second affairs that pve encounters are. Pretty sure I never said anything about there being less to mesmers, so I think you're talking to someone else here. And anyone can have advantages if given to them, so I don't really see where you're going with that statement.

Gill Halendt · Feb 27, 2010, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

The developers have been experimenting with a few other professions, however certain professions simply didn't test well enough to make it into this build. They've been bouncing around some ideas and doing a few test experiments, but those didn't pan out well enough to get through to the final phases. Rest assured, though, the designers have been reading your feedback and feelings. They know that certain professions felt left out in this update.

Here.

As I've been saying, you can't just make it a matter of "priority" and assume that Mesmers (and Rangers, Dervishes, Paragons) haven't been/aren't being looked into just because this specific update had no significant change for them. To each his own. The Mesmer is so much in the need for a change that they'll probably need a dedicated update for it.

The Josip · Feb 27, 2010, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

and assume that Mesmers (and Rangers, Dervishes, Paragons) haven't been/aren't being looked into just because

Who cares why mesmers haven't been looked into? Gill Halendt, warrior.

I couldn't care less myself about promises and 'looking into'. I bet they are not making GW2 the same way, by 'looking into' it for several years without results. I bet GW2 production actually has results from month to month. Imagine if you were investor giving GW2 team millions of dollars and after several years you come to see the product and they have nothing but "well, we have been looking into it.. we even made few changes and quickly reverted them back. What? Right now? Well we got nothing but we're looking into it".

You know what's good thing with economy and entrepreneurship? Nonsense opinions and stances don't cash in. Results do. And that's what this thread is about - not whether ANet cares or not, or when they will do something, it's about "something has been done but oh wait where's mesmer?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooYin

GW was first made as a PvP game. The first classes were balanced with respect to this. What made mesmers so fearsome in PvP (disrupting the other team/disabling members at key moments) also makes them relatively worthless in PvE.

So the first classes were balanced with respect to PvP? Ok. So PvP being equal, in PvE, elementalists were plowing the areas while mesmers were struggling? Ok.

But since then we got PvE skills. It's been years since those. PvP in no way stands in a way of PvE balance. It's not that ANet doesn't have time to do proper balance, as seen here. They buffed many things. They concluded that necromancer wasn't good enough so they buffed it more. Or they concluded it's ok to have super-necro and super-sucky-mesmer.

Lopezus · Feb 27, 2010, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Here.

As I've been saying, you can't just make it a matter of "priority" and assume that Mesmers (and Rangers, Dervishes, Paragons) haven't been/aren't being looked into just because this specific update had no significant change for them. To each his own. The Mesmer is so much in the need for a change that they'll probably need a dedicated update for it.

PBlock nerf says hello, so nerfing mesmer skills somehow comes as priority.
And to all people saying that mesmers do fine in pve can you logically explain why others professions (necros and rits ) receive buffs, you will have hard time proving that theses classes weren't doing fine in comparison to mesmers. And to those saying that buffing mesmers will be just bandaid or some something like that , well don't you worry about it, we are already there: AP , i doubt that any imaginable buff to mesmer skills could compete with that.

Gill Halendt · Feb 27, 2010, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

PBlock nerf says hello, so nerfing mesmer skills somehow comes as priority.

Ah, I see. So skill updates must come in batches or nothing.

Toning down PBlock was indeed prioritary and rather easy: its problem was the duration of the blackout inflicted -> the duration has been lowered. It was so easy that it was probably thought out and tested in a week, after the Preview.

I don't think ANY change to a class as the Mesmer should take just a week, unless you really love half-baked, poorly conceived updates. They need GREAT CARE, not a week of rushed, random buffs just to keep you pleased.

Read the statement by Regina again. They've been considering buffs to underused classes, but any change wasn't throughly tested before the update went live. Sure, they could keep on testing and delay the balance update further...

Do you really believe all they've been doing in the last few months could make it into the patch?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

And to all people saying that mesmers do fine in pve can you logically explain why others professions (necros and rits ) receive buffs, you will have hard time proving that theses classes weren't doing fine in comparison to mesmers.

Rits doing fine? Are we playing the same game?

Even NOW, Rits are pretty much relegated to ONE viable build - Spirit Spam - and one, two elites - SoS and, at a lesser extent, SoGM. Fast Casting shines when compared to Spawning Power. The fact that Rits are now in vogue and SoS is overpowered - and, guess what, THAT was toned down with the latest update! - DOESN'T mean Rits are fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Who cares why mesmers haven't been looked into? Gill Halendt, warrior.

This again? Envious much?

The Josip, Mesmer.

Now I got it. THAT'S your problem. You've probably never, ever played ANYTHING ELSE than your Mesmer and you're envious of other classes, since other classes don't "suck" as much.

Assumptions is all you can come up with, so, let's play your assumption game.

I'm a Warrior and I obviously DON'T care about Mesmers, since I only play Warriors and the Warrior is not only perfectly fine, but probaly one of the best classes in the game. Differently from the Mesmer, it was well tought out since the start and it has a purpose.

So, The Josip, Mesmer. Mesmers suck -> so do you. Enjoy your game.

This thread was taking a nice turn after the suggestions by upier (which actually made sense). You spoiled it all with more rants. Thanks a lot.

EDIT - Oh, BTW, changed my profile. It now says "Me" instead of "W", maybe now you'll pay attention to what I'm saying instead of whining and overexaggerating your protest with dubious arguments, assumptions, pointless attacks.

YunSooJin · Feb 27, 2010, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Who cares why mesmers haven't been looked into? Gill Halendt, warrior.

I couldn't care less myself about promises and 'looking into'. I bet they are not making GW2 the same way, by 'looking into' it for several years without results. I bet GW2 production actually has results from month to month. Imagine if you were investor giving GW2 team millions of dollars and after several years you come to see the product and they have nothing but "well, we have been looking into it.. we even made few changes and quickly reverted them back. What? Right now? Well we got nothing but we're looking into it".

You know what's good thing with economy and entrepreneurship? Nonsense opinions and stances don't cash in. Results do. And that's what this thread is about - not whether ANet cares or not, or when they will do something, it's about "something has been done but oh wait where's mesmer?"

So the first classes were balanced with respect to PvP? Ok. So PvP being equal, in PvE, elementalists were plowing the areas while mesmers were struggling? Ok.

But since then we got PvE skills. It's been years since those. PvP in no way stands in a way of PvE balance. It's not that ANet doesn't have time to do proper balance, as seen here. They buffed many things. They concluded that necromancer wasn't good enough so they buffed it more. Or they concluded it's ok to have super-necro and super-sucky-mesmer.

exaggerating and crying won't get you anywhere.. srsly. if you're going to build an argument try one that doesn't make the reader automatically roll their eyes.

oh protip: eles suck in HM. increased armor really hurts elementalists

Gill Halendt · Feb 27, 2010, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

oh protip: eles suck in HM. increased armor really hurts elementalists

Oh, and Mesmers have some of the best, armor ignoring skills in the game, but what do we know...

YunSooJin · Feb 27, 2010, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Oh, and Mesmers have some of the best, armor ignoring skills in the game, but what do we know...

no no.. we're not on the side of giving mesmers new skills to compensate for some personal shortcoming so we must never have played mesmer, must not have a mesmer character, and must hate anyone who plays mesmer too...

edit: mesmers probably could use some tweaks in the inspiration line pve-wise, but the whole drivel about new skills is stupid, frankly speaking.

Oh and just cause my gurus account says Mo/W does not mean all I have is a monk.. or that my monk is even my main >.>

Gill Halendt · Feb 27, 2010, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

Oh and just cause my gurus account says Mo/W does not mean all I have is a monk.. or that my monk is even my main >.>

Tough you have what looks like a Ranger in Elite Druid in your avatar, so you must be the kind of person who thinks that Rangers are better at disruption. Aren't you?

Lopezus · Feb 27, 2010, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Rits doing fine? Are we playing the same game?

Even NOW, Rits are pretty much relegated to ONE viable build - Spirit Spam - and one, two elites - SoS and, at a lesser extent, SoGM. Fast Casting shines when compared to Spawning Power. The fact that Rits are now in vogue and SoS is overpowered - and, guess what, THAT was toned down with the latest update! - DOESN'T mean Rits are fine.

Omg, don't you get it ? I was refering to people that were saying that mesmers don't need buff b/c class is doing fine, they are having fun with it and completed all pve in HM back and forth. Guess, same can be applied to Rits, of course that doesn't mean niether class is fine in pve, but one is actually receving buffs, and it isn't mesmer.